Become a Better Listener

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This is a podcast episode titled, Become a Better Listener. The summary for this episode is: <p>Dr. Mark Goulston is back by popular demand! In this episode of Negotiations Ninja, I chat with Dr. Goulston about becoming a better listener—which includes learning how to talk with people. Dr. Mark shares that there are four levels of talking to someone. You can talk&nbsp;<em>over</em>&nbsp;them,&nbsp;<em>at</em>&nbsp;them,&nbsp;<em>to</em>&nbsp;them, or&nbsp;<em>with&nbsp;</em>them. How do you know which you’re doing? What should you do instead? Learn more in this episode!</p><h2>Outline of This Episode</h2><ul><li>[1:26] Dr. Mark Goulston is back by popular demand!</li><li>[4:20] The HUVA exercise will change&nbsp;<em>everything</em></li><li>[8:34] What if you don’t add value to the conversation?</li><li>[10:24] The persuasion cycle: don’t move too fast</li><li>[12:50] The four levels of talking to someone</li><li>[23:16] How to delegate effectively</li><li>[27:46] How to get other people to excel emotionally</li><li>[29:35] You must adjust your tone for each person</li><li>[34:44] Learn more about Dr. Mark Goulston</li></ul><h2>Resources &amp; People Mentioned</h2><ul><li>Warren Bennis:&nbsp;<a href="" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"></a></li></ul><h2>Connect with Dr. Mark Goulston</h2><ul><li>Dr. Mark’s Website:&nbsp;<a href="" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"></a></li><li>LinkedIn Live Sessions:&nbsp;<a href=";origin=GLOBAL_SEARCH_HEADER" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">;origin=GLOBAL_SEARCH_HEADER</a></li><li>Podcast: My Wakeup Call:&nbsp;<a href="" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"></a></li><li>Just Listen:&nbsp;<a href="" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"></a></li><li>Connect on LinkedIn:&nbsp;<a href="" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"></a></li><li>Follow on Twitter:&nbsp;<a href="" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"></a></li></ul><h2>Connect With Mark</h2><ul><li>Follow Negotiations Ninja on Twitter:&nbsp;<a href="" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">@NegotiationPod</a></li><li>Connect with Mark&nbsp;<a href="" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">on LinkedIn</a></li><li>Follow Negotiations Ninja&nbsp;<a href="" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">on LinkedIn</a></li></ul><p><br></p>
The HUVA exercise will change everything
04:09 MIN
What if you don’t add value to the conversation?
01:39 MIN
The persuasion cycle: don’t move too fast
02:27 MIN
The four levels of talking to someone
11:20 MIN
How to delegate effectively
03:43 MIN
How to get other people to excel emotionally
01:46 MIN
You must adjust your tone for each person
05:07 MIN
Learn more about Dr. Mark Goulston
03:24 MIN

Mark: Welcome to the Negotiations Ninja podcast, where we develop and deliver the most engaging negotiation content and training in the world. We host negotiation experts, business people, and entrepreneurs, and discuss what works, what doesn't work and how we can improve our negotiation skills. Hey, Negotiations Ninja listeners. You've got Mark here from the Negotiations Ninja podcast. We've got Dr. Mark Goulston back on the show today. I'm really excited to present him to you. He's backed by popular demand. Everyone that I spoke to about the last show said," Listen, you got to get this guy back on." And so we're diving into deeper topics today, all about persuasion, influence and listening. He knows what he's talking about. And I have learned a ton from him, not only from his writing, but also just speaking to him in the way that he uses tone, the way that he uses listening, the way that he uses dramatic pauses and the way that he approaches conversation. You feel like the most important person in the room when this guy talks to you. It's incredible. Enjoy this amazing episode with Dr. Mark Goldstein. Dr. Mark Goulston. We made it, man. Welcome.

Dr. Mark Goulston: Well, thank you. It's good to be back. Thank you for a, I guess it's not a do over, it's a do more crosstalk.

Mark: Do more. Well, we appreciate you being back, man. We got such good feedback on the last conversation from our guests. And everyone was like," Oh, you got to have this guy back. You got to talk more about what this guy's got going on. We want to hear more about it." So that's why you're back. You're back by popular demand.

Dr. Mark Goulston: Popular demand? Boy, I inaudible. And send me a note that I can take to my family crosstalk. I love my family, but like a lot of you listening in, in my family, I am there to be seen and not heard from.

Mark: As much the same role in my family.

Dr. Mark Goulston: crosstalk it's really interesting because when I'm with my family, and I know that's important because my dad who died many years ago, was a bit of a workaholic. He was preoccupied. And I think my brothers and I missed out on a relatedness with him. And so I was determined to reverse that. So I've done my best to attend and be present with my kids. And they're all grown. And I have a couple of grandchildren, and another one's about to pop in the next week. So I'm very excited about that. But I think I've really gone too far because when I'm with my family, they can be checking their text messages, even my wife. But if I dare look at my phone, they give me the stink- eye and then if I start whining," Well, you get to look at yours, why can't..." And then I say to myself," Mark, do you want to have a relationship with your family or do you just want to have an arrangement?

Mark: Classic.

Dr. Mark Goulston: So I smile, like you're seeing it. I smile, but right behind my teeth is a," This is a double standard. I can't stand it."

Mark: Life is full of double standards. Why not at home? Right? I feel like that's just one of those things.

Dr. Mark Goulston: I do a lot of interviews on this thing because I have this book called Just Listen. It's in 27 languages. And I speak all over the world and rarely in America about listening because Americans do not want to listen crosstalk.

Mark: Okay. I'm so glad that you brought this up because this is by far, in a way, one of the most important skills, if not the most important skill in negotiation, is the skill of listening. You forgot to mention that it's also the best selling book on listening. Isn't that correct?

Dr. Mark Goulston: inaudible well, certainly. If you're in 27 languages, that means that at least in a couple of countries, crosstalk three or four. So it is the top book on listening and not to compete with your illustrious podcast, but if you go to Harvard Business Review IdeaCast, actually, if you look up our old tale for some reason, I know they keep track of people's podcasts, but the HBR IdeaCast, my episode, Become a Better Listener, has been the number one ranked episode for three years straight, non- stop.

Mark: Well, there's a reason for that. That's why you're backed by popular demand on this podcast today. Let's dive into it, I want to get into a real conversation about listening. One of the things that I want to talk about is, especially in negotiation, so often we feel like people aren't listening to us, right? This happens in negotiation all the time where you're trying to get your point across, you're trying to say something to the counterparty and you're thinking to yourself," Why wouldn't they just listen to me? Why are they so difficult?" Like," I'm trying to tell you something, but you won't listen to me." And oftentimes to me, at least it appears as though they're not listening. Not because they're not necessarily listening, but because we actually haven't given them the opportunity to be heard. And they feel like they haven't been able to express themselves. And so as a result, whenever we say something, they're just like," Well, you haven't given me the opportunity. So I'm just going to shut down." How do you feel about that statement? Does that resonate with you?

Dr. Mark Goulston: About 150%. But I want to make sure that what you've said you're finished with, because if you're not finished and I start talking, you're going to push me back. So I need to make sure that you feel listened to, and I'm going to be dropping things that your listeners can use. And if we repeat something from the last episode, I apologize, but here is something. If you use this exercise once a day for a week, it will completely change the nature of your relationships, probably your negotiations, everything. And it's called the HUVA Technique. H- U- V- A. I'm not sure if we covered it last time, but we're going to cover it this time. What HUVA stands for, is think of a conversation that you want to go well, and obviously that's a negotiation, but it can be something with your spouse, with your kids. And what you're going to do is you're going to have the intention, I want this to go well. And at the end of it, you're going to rate yourself on a scale of 1- 10 from their point of view. So afterwards, you're going to ask yourself H- U- V- A,"On a scale of 1- 10, how much do they feel heard out by me?" Meaning did you interrupt? Did you switch the direction of it? Did you make it all about you? So how much do they feel heard out by you on a scale of 1- 10? U, How much did they feel understood by you? Did you ask them to go deeper? Did you ask them to clarify something? Did you give them a chance when they were talking about something that was important to them, to elaborate? Did you say more about that on a scale of 1- 10. And then V is how much do they feel valued by you? How much did you pause and let go of your agenda and actually hear something pretty neat about what they were saying and genuinely even respond. And before you continue your negotiation say," That was really fascinating, what you just said. Wow. I'm glad you said that because I just figured out what was so important to you. I'm so glad you said that." And then the final A on a scale of 1-10 is how much did they feel you added value. And added value means that you're not just trying to win, you're actually listening so deeply to them, that you actually see or hear something that they could do even more with, from their point of view. Like you and I are developing a relationship that inaudible said," Mark, have you ever thought of taking this podcast in this direction?"" No." Well, that's adding value, and if you do that once a day and I'm a shrink, so here's the thing, you can't beat up on yourself when you discover you're lousy at it, we're all lousy at. But if you intentionally rate yourself and then ask yourself,"On the next conversation, how could I improve that?" It will change every relationship in your life.

Mark: I think where a lot of people struggle, at least from what I can see in the conversations that I've observed, where people struggle is the A, at the end, the added value piece. And it almost seems like people become almost like the Gestapo, right? Like asking questions with a light shining in an interrogation scene, right? Like light shining on someone where they're just firing off questions and they're trying to gather as much information as possible, but then they're not adding value to that conversation. What's the danger of that, if they don't add value to that conversation?

Dr. Mark Goulston: Well, here's the danger. If instead of a 10, 10, 10, 10 on hearing them out, understanding them, valuing them and adding value, you do the opposite. You're going to trigger their wanting to get away from you fast. So you're going to trigger, not just resistance and pushback, but resentment. Now here, I want to be a little bit kind to the person who's pushing and pushing because when majority of people push and push out of fear and the majority of people don't try to be empathic with where the person's actually coming from. And what's most important to them. Because the majority of people are afraid." Well, what if they come up with is something I'm not selling? What if they come up with is something I don't even understand? What am I going to do with my inventory? What am I going to do? What am I going to do?" And that's what I am telling you, if you're listening in, that is your grand opportunity to care about what's important to them more than you care about the sale. Did we share on the last conversation, because it's been a little bit, the idea of how to turn a negotiation or a picture around when the other person is tuned out.

Mark: I think we did. I think what you said was listening to me versus listening for something that I'm going to say, right?

Dr. Mark Goulston: So I'll just refer people back to that episode because we have so much we can cover in this one, but I think we raised a good point, but we need to be understanding, most people who are pushy, like trying to get their numbers, the results.

Mark: This speaks to sort of, maybe the lack of understanding of the persuasion cycle itself. Right? One of the things I wanted to talk today about was you mentioned resistance in those last few sentences. A lot of people try and move people from resistance in the persuasion cycle, straight to doing, to taking action, without moving through the intermediate steps. I wonder if you could talk people through sort of what the persuasion cycle is, and then the danger of trying to move it too fast, as you mentioned, that sales person that just wants to move straight to doing is missing out on some really important steps in the middle to be able to get full buy- in.

Dr. Mark Goulston: Okay. So in Just Listen, there's one graphic, mainly because when I read books and there's tons of graphics, my eyes glaze over. So I put in one graphic and it's called the persuasion cycle. And in your mind's eye, when you're with another person, imagine this is kind of where they're coming from and you want to talk and walk them through the persuasion cycle. So imagine that initially they're somewhat resistant to listening, certainly resistant to doing, what you want to then do is in the conversation, in your listing, in you're talking, you want to move them to listening to what you're saying. You then want to move them to consider what you're saying. You then want to move them to willing to do something and actually doing it. And then to glad they did. And when they're glad they did, they actually tell other people about you. And the reason I put the persuasion cycle in there, it was very simple. And I hope look at the book, it did well. But if you look up persuasion cycle, my last name Goulston, look up images on Google or Yahoo, you'll see pictures of it. The reason I put it up there is when I show it to people and I say,"Would you agree that this is what the other person's mind needs to go through or optimally will go through for you to be more persuasive?" And everybody sees it vividly. And would you agree that if out of your anxiety, you skip steps. If you skipped from their being resistant to doing or even listening to getting them to do, that they're going to push back because you've skipped steps. And the more that you can understand these, and then I'm going to share something else. The difference between the four levels of talking. And again, I may have covered this in the last podcast, but we'll reiterate it, but there's four levels of speaking to someone, talking to someone, you can talk over them, at them, to them or with them. Over, at, to, or with. And the way you know what you're doing is really by their body language. Now you don't see that so much, although on a Zoom call, you can pick up certain nuances, but just think of it from your point of view. When someone talks over you, it's insulting. Someone talks over you and you were at a conference and then they take a break in the middle of their talk. Unless you're someone who likes punishment, you're so insulted, you wouldn't come back. When someone talks at you, if that's intimidating, you may hunker down because you're afraid they're going to yell at you or something. So you may hunker down or you may stick your chin out of them. And with a look that says," You can't talk at me that way, what do you think you're doing?" And if someone's talking to you and I'm going to demonstrate this right with you Mark, if someone's talking to you, you nod from the neck up." Well this makes sense. This is really good. That's informative. I can use that." But the gold standard is if someone talks with you, you lean in and when you lean in, you want more of it because very few of us feel talked with. And I'll demonstrate that to you Mark. So I'm giving you information, you're giving me questions. Hopefully I'm answering them and not being overly tangential. I did have a cup of coffee that helped. But if I focus on what you're listening for, and I think we've done this before, but we'll reiterate it because I think you'll feel the same thing. And if you're listening in, this is what Mark is listening for, he's listening for a way to give you the listener, immediate, doable by you value that you can use today to get better results, because you trust Mark, you have confidence in him and you believe he wants to bring you good value. And I believe that's true of you Mark, because we've had a conversation before and we're having another one. But as I'm talking about that, what matters most to Mark is giving value that's tactical, practical, doable by you the listener immediately, you can use it today and you'll see results. Does that feel right at all?

Mark: Mm- hmm(affirmative). Exactly.

Dr. Mark Goulston: And if you listened to the podcast, he felt talked with. You talk with, because I got what he was listening for. By the way, if you're in negotiations, I'm doing lots of interviews for some reason or other. And something that came out in a recent interview is if you're doing B2B selling or B2B negotiating, or B2C selling and negotiating, what came out in a recent podcast is what B2B buyer is listening for. He's listening for something, or she's listening for something that will get them a raise or a promotion or a win, especially if they haven't had any recently. And they're also listening for something that could get them fired. Or if I say yes to this in a B2B thing, and I buy something, my boss says," Why did you buy that piece of junk? And you paid too much." That's not going to be good at your next performance review. So if you can be aware that yes, superficially, you're talking about the problem that we solved or the opportunity the company wants to take advantage of. But if you can understand that where they're coming from is they're listening for something that will give them a win and not something that will cost them. And then a B2C sales, that's where that other interview went, is often what a customer or client, but mainly customers is looking for, is they're looking for an experience. They want to go from feeling lousy, to feeling better, from feeling stupid, to feeling smart, to feeling weak, to feeling powerful, to feeling confused, to feeling confident. And so if you can put that in the back of your head and just be aware of that's what they're listening for, just being aware of that will move you towards talking with them.

Mark: I think one thing that I've found, and what you've said has just reinforced this for me is that someone's listening is a function of how you're talking with them. And to your example, if you are not talking with them, if you're talking at them or maybe even a little bit better, even if you're talking to them, they may not necessarily be listening. But once you start talking with them, then the propensity for listening increases substantially. And one of the things that I've noticed with a lot of people who are really great at communication is when you talk with them, you feel like the most important person in the world. Like when they engage with you, you feel like there's no one else around you. And the conversation is of such depth and such intensity that you leave that conversation going," that person me. They understand me at a level that no one else understands me at."

Dr. Mark Goulston: Yeah. I would tweak that a little bit. I would say that when you're communicating really well, the other person feels like the most important person in the world. I had a mentor named Warren Bennis, big leadership guy. I miss him because leadership could use a Warren Bennis to help it. But some of the things that he used to say, and he would say," Mark, try to be more interested than interesting, try to be more fascinated than fascinating." And my favorite Warren phrase was," Boredom occurs when we fail to make the other person interested.

Mark: Is it a function of also making the other person feel valuable in the conversation?

Dr. Mark Goulston: Absolutely. And what happens is when you do that, a lot of people don't feel valuable or valued anywhere. That's why one of my favorite phrases to use with people, even people that are subordinates to you, who you're trying to make sure that they're more accountable. And when you delegate something to them, that they do it, the word that you don't want to overuse it, but the word is, important. If you use the word important in reference to the other person, it's incredibly engaging. So for instance, I did an interview about how do you delegate effectively? And something I learned from a fellow named Stan Baki, he's retired, but he was a senior sales manager with state farm insurance. And one of the things he would say, if you're listening and you have to delegate something to someone, I thought this was just eloquent. He said, that when you delegate something to someone afterwards, you don't say, do you understand what I asked? You say, what do you understand that I asked you to do? And why is that important to us? And so they'll tell you that. And then you say," In the event going forward, for any reason at all, you're not able to do what you've said you're committed to doing because something pulls you off track, or maybe another manager is pulling at you. If you're not able to do that, what's the best way for me to be with you, if my only concern is getting you up and going and back on track? I have no interest in punishing you or shaming you or yelling at you, but going forward, what's the best way to approach you when you haven't done something that you agreed to do?" And then when they tell you what it is, and they might say," Well, do it one- on- one. Please do not do it in front of other people. And please, when you do it, please don't raise your voice and yell at me and talk down to me like I'm being stupid or lazy or something like that, because I'm very sensitive to that." And then what you say to them is," What you just said is much too important for me to get it wrong. What you've said is going forward, if you're not able to do what you agreed to do, the best way for me to approach you is..." And then you repeat back what they said. Now there's going to be a lot of managers who say," I don't need to do that." Well, fine, fine. Go have people who you don't have a relationship with, they don't feel you care about, who you don't feel you understand them, that the reason they're not doing something is because their kid is sick in the hospital. And have a good time being that kind of a manager. That's not the kind of manager I would want to be or have. But when you say this and you go through those steps, and you might want to replay this part of the podcast and you repeat back to them," This is too important for me to get wrong. This is what you told me to do. And for some reason, rather that you slipped off following through, is that true?" And then you wait for them to say yes. And when they say yes, it seals more of a commitment in them to want to do what they just committed to you to do.

Mark: Hey, listeners, I want to tell you about another company that I run, called Content Callout. It is a thought leadership brand marketing company. Now, what does that mean? It means that we take you as an executive or entrepreneur, a leader of a small or medium sized business. And we turn you into a thought leader online. We take your personal brand and we amp it up to 11 so that you can lead with confidence, knowing that people will recognize you, recognize your brand and recognize your business because of the thought leadership approach that you've taken on social media, through content creation and content distribution, as well as engaging with all of your following online. How do you get involved in this? Easy, easy, easy, just go to contentcallout. com/ getstarted. And you will see there three different options that will allow you to take your thought leadership brand for yourself and for your business to the next level. We are super excited to talk to you about this. We've seen some massive growth with the businesses that we've been working with. Very, very exciting time for us. Look at that. We appreciate it. Now, back to your show. Do you think that the burden of the relationship becomes significantly greater when you don't do that? What I've found is, especially when you change your tone there, where you're showing you were the manager that was just speaking at someone versus with someone, when you change your tone there, the burden of the relationship felt heavier to me, right? Like if I was imagining myself as a subordinate in that circumstance, and I was just like," Oh man, I hate this." Just that feeling of the heavier burden in that relationship, was way more substantial. But when you spoke to me as though you were interested in how to address me based on my own feedback, it almost felt like the relationship was, I don't want to say lighter, but there was less of a burden there, it felt more open.

Dr. Mark Goulston: Absolutely. Absolutely. In fact, when I give presentations on listening, and this is something I will often do at the beginning and I would say," Raise your hand if you think you're a good listener." Most of them will raise their hand. And I'll say," Raise your hand if you think you're an absolutely great listener." And then a few people raise their hand and the people in the room look at them like," Yeah, he's a terrible listener." And then I would say this to them." What would you say if I could prove to you that you don't listen ever?"

Mark: Odd statement.

Dr. Mark Goulston: That's a pretty good opening, to tell the fact.

Mark: I love that.

Dr. Mark Goulston: And they say," Oh, okay. I like a challenge." I say,"I'd like you to imagine that you have someone that works for you and they can be a little bit flaky in getting things on time. You keep them because basically what they do is good enough, but that really irks you. But when you say they're going to get something in, it's always like... I want you to imagine this, it's Monday morning, they're supposed to get something in, to you by then. And they said that," I didn't get it done." What are the adjectives you have in your head about that person?" [ inaudible 00:25:16] they're so disorganized. They procrastinate. Why do I put up with them? Geez, one of these days it's going to be the last straw. Geez, maybe I should think of firing them." So those are some of the thoughts you have, right? But what if you said this instead?" Why isn't it ready?" And they said something like," I know I'm late with everything and I know it makes you crazy. And I was all set to get this done this morning and I will have it to you by the end of the day. The last night my grandmother had a stroke. She's in the hospital. My grandfather, inaudible adore them both, is lost. He is lost. And we had to stay with him. I had to stay with him. We had to reassure him that it's going to be okay. Let's just see what the doctor say. My grandfather started crying because he's so dependent on my grandmother. And so I spent the whole night with him. But even with that, I got enough of this done. So it will be in your email by 5: 00 PM today." What would you think if you were the person and that's what they said and they weren't lying?" I rest my case." See, what happens is when something doesn't go well, it triggers adjectives to describe the other person and that convinces us about something about them, that may not be true. And sometimes we're so frustrated that we don't pause and think," Maybe they have a reason. Maybe they have a legitimate reason." And we don't ask with that inquiring tone. And again, it's tone. It's like," Why didn't you get it done today?" Which is different than the talking at them." Why didn't you get it done?"" Why isn't it done?"

Mark: It's very accusatory. The difference.

Dr. Mark Goulston: But if you follow what we're getting at. And I will tell you something, you say to that employee," Go be with your grandpa. We can get this thing done in a couple days and I'll cover for you." What's going to happen is that employee is going to start cry for your understanding and compassion. You just move in that employee 10, 10, 10, 10. And that employee is going to be so grateful to you, they're going to stop procrastinating.

Mark: I find that some people are less open than others when we ask those inquiring why questions or we lean into that conversation. And something that you write about is this whole concept of helping someone to excel emotionally or excel mentally. And for some people, it can be more challenging than others. How do we do that? How do we help someone who maybe is less open than others to get to the point where they can share that?

Dr. Mark Goulston: Well, it's interesting. I think a lot of it has to do with our feelings. When I asked the people I coach and I coach more women than men, because men don't like to ask for direction. Men say," Oh, I got it handled." But women, if you can give them value, are not only open to it, they seek it out. But what I've asked women," Why do you hire me?""Why should I hire a woman?" And then some of the men will say the same thing. What the women will say to me is,"You're like the big brother I always wanted." And I'll say," What does that mean?" And they say," You can point out things to me that I may not want to hear, but I need to hear. And you can be so direct in a playful and loving and tactical way. I just love it." So in answer to your question, and apparently now, I'm the youngest of three brothers, but I adore my older brothers. I just absolutely adore them. And I think because I adore them, I've wanted to be like them. And so when you're like a big brother, a lot of it is your comfort with it. So if there's someone who you don't think is going to take criticism well, if your tone is," Hey, what's going on, man?" But you follow me, the tone is inviting and playful. And it's non- judgemental, they'll say," Such and such." They'll say," Well, I figure it was something like that. Tell me more about it. Let's see if we can get this thing figured out." But that's like a big brother tone. Not that you have to be comfortable with it, but you can grow into it, without it being an unfortunately, here's a misogynistic title, but it'd be a good one. Big brother is managing you, thought big brother or big sister is managing you. Because it's true, I love my big brothers and they can be direct and they can say," Mark, what'd you do that for?" But it's laced with love.

Mark: Do you find that when you have these conversations in your coaching practice, that you have to adjust your tone for each of the coaching participants that you have, based on how they receive information. And then if that's true, have you found that people's willingness to receive criticism over the course of a certain amount of years has either degraded or improved over time? Just what's your observation with that?

Dr. Mark Goulston: Well, I think early on, people are thinking," Can I trust this guy? Can't I trust this guy?" inaudible Is he going to be a jerk or an a- hole? Does he really care about me?" And I think what happens is unfortunate. And part of it, I will tell you, I've had eight mentors, they've all died. My last one was Larry King, he died about a month ago. And then the one before him was a guy named Warren Bennis, big leadership guy. And one of the things that I realized that I valued most about these amazing mentors is I thought it was that they respected me because to be respected by a guy like that. And they were just overflowing with wisdom from experience. But the key to the relationship is they enjoyed me, I put a smile on their face. And it wasn't just about what we were going to talk about. Whenever I'd see them, the first thing we do is we'd enjoy each other. And on a lot of times, if you say, how many people in your life enjoy you? Geez, I don't know. Does that ever bother you? I try not to think about it because there's not that many people that enjoy me.

Mark: That's a hard question to answer. Holy cow, how many people actually enjoy me?

Dr. Mark Goulston: But I think what happens is, so I've had eight mentors and no more. And I mentor about 40, 50 people at various frequencies. And it's important for me to pay it forward. And to be honest, if I'm meeting with someone and talking to someone, who knows, maybe I'll become a mentor to you, inaudible, but the point is, what I'm asking myself is, do I enjoy this person? Or could I come to enjoy them? Not because they're there to make my life better, but I know the power to the other person of feeling enjoyed and feeling enjoyable. And so I'm just sharing that with you. So in answer to your question, do I change my tones? Initially, I don't want to come off as overly friendly. I'm not unfriendly, but with strangers. I think this has happened with us Mark, and if you're listening in, maybe you recognize this. Have you ever had a conversation with someone and initially, or you're trading information and you're talking to each other and yada yada and check all the boxes, but you say to your self inwardly." I'm not sure what my schedule is, but I could become friends with this person." And it passes what we call the intersubjective moment. And I'll give you another term, which I love. And I think it's a Vietnamese philosopher who came up with it. But the term is the Interbeing, and Interbeing is the space between you and me as we're communicating. And when you feel enjoyed by each other, when you feel empathized with by each other, when you feel protected by the other person, when you feel hoovered by the other person, the Interbeing goes way up. When you feel the other person's dismissive, when all they care about is selling you, all they care about is winning, the Interbeing goes down. I think we have a pretty good Interbeing, Mark. What do you think?

Mark: I think we have a great one. Every time I talk with you now, I feel like we're having these next level conversations where we just get deeper and deeper into the next layer of the relationship. And I feel like that's, at least based on my observation, that's something that's dramatically lacking in a lot of how we communicate in the business world. In the personal relationships and stuff like that, that's not my field. And I can't really speak to that, but at least in the business world, from what I can see is there appears to be an unwillingness or an impatience to get to that level, to get to that understanding. And I don't know what to do about that. One of the things that I struggle with in my practice is getting people to listen to each other, because a good negotiation is a function of good listening. And one of the books that I keep recommending to people is your book, because if you can get the listening part right, then everything else becomes easier in the negotiation. And sort of for the listeners that are listening in today, if I could make a recommendation for you, do yourself a favor, pick up, Just Listen by Dr. Mark Goulston, read everything that you can about the work that he's done, follow what he's doing online, especially with his shows, and really dig deep into this. Because I think our communication needs to, especially in the business world, if we're ever going to get to the levels that we want to get to in terms of negotiation success, our communication needs to improve. And the biggest, lowest hanging fruit that's available to us is on the listening. So to that end, Dr. Goulston, I would like to thank you for being here and sharing your wisdom once again. Thank you so much for being on this show. If people want to follow you, they want to find out more about you. They want to see what you're doing and what's coming up. I know you've got a lot going on Clubhouse for example, you've got a lot going on with your show. How do they do that?

Dr. Mark Goulston: So if you got to markgoulston. com, I wake up and I connect dots in life. I'm in my 70s and my mentor, Warren Bennis, when I turned 60, I said," Geez, I think I'm too old for the world now." He said," Mark, my best decade was my 70s. All the things I observed, experienced, learned, the dots just started connecting and I don't go out of my way to offend people. And I try not to, but I don't care if I do. I'm just connecting the dots but for everybody. And if someone wants to hear them, so markgoulston. com, you'll see I'm just trying to connect dots as fast as I can. I have a podcast called My Wakeup Call, which is rated as the top inspiration podcasts for business owners by the UPS store. It's not exactly the Oscars. But also something I'm excited about is I have a LinkedIn live stream program called No Strings Attached. And I had my first guest on, was Marshall Goldsmith. He actually inspired me to do this, because Marshall has something called knowledge philanthropy, and he's giving away all his ideas and IP for free. crosstalk course out of it. You can call it your own. You don't have to thank him. You don't have to pay him. And he said to me, he said," Mark, ideas that can help the world are stupid to just sit on, just give it out to the world." And then he said," Don't worry about it, Mark. Because there are some people, when you give stuff to them and it's valuable to them. And they're so appreciative that you're not hitting on them. And crosstalk, they're going to come back and say,'What you told me, changed my life. It saved my marriage. How do I pay you back?" What Marshall says, " I tell them, pay me what you think it's worth or donate to my foundation. I'm trying to set something up about suicide prevention." So that's going to be a regular thing. My next guest is going to be Ivan Meisner, who is the founder of BNI, and we're going to have a great show. My guests and I try to share things and I think I've hopefully shared a few with you today that are nuggets, where you would say," I never would have thought of that. They're hidden in plain sight. I never would have thought of that. I think that would work. I think I can do that today." So when I tell my guests to come on, I say that," Just drop some on my audience." And it's a LinkedIn Live Stream. If you look up Mark Goulston, No Strings Attached and do a search on LinkedIn. Now you'll find some of the episodes.

Mark: I love that. And I love to show My Wakeup Call, how you get people to share those intimate situation, those intimate moments is pretty amazing. And I've seen people reduce to pretty much tears on those conversations. And it's powerful when you hear someone or people of that caliber speaking about situations that caused the light to go off or caused them to take action on something in their lives. It's very powerful. So thank you. Thank you for all that you do. Thank you for being on this show. Thank you for sharing your wisdom. For the listeners, we will link out to all of these things in the show notes. You can look on the website. You can look on wherever you download podcasts. Dr. Goulston have a wonderful day. Hey friends, thanks so much for listening to this episode. If you enjoyed it, please share it with friends and colleagues so that they can benefit from it as well. If you find Negotiations Ninja podcast worthy, please go on to iTunes and give us a cool rating with a nicer review. We certainly appreciate every single one that we get, because it helps us to understand who is listening, how they're listening and what is they like. If there's something that you would like me to discuss around negotiation, influence or persuasion, give me a shout. You know how to reach me on social media, or you can get me on my website, which is www. negotiations. ninja.


Dr. Mark Goulston is back by popular demand! In this episode of Negotiations Ninja, I chat with Dr. Goulston about becoming a better listener—which includes learning how to talk with people. Dr. Mark shares that there are four levels of talking to someone. You can talk over them, at them, to them, or with them. How do you know which you’re doing? What should you do instead? Learn more in this episode!