Throwback with Chris Hadnagy
Throwback with Chris Hadnagy
How do you negotiate ethically while still protecting your interests? Chris Hadnagy—a brilliant master of persuasion and influence—shares some strategies from his latest book in this throwback edition of Negotiations Ninja!
Mark: Welcome to the Negotiations Ninja podcast, where we develop and deliver the most engaging negotiation content and training in the world. We host negotiation experts, business people, and entrepreneurs, and discuss what works, what doesn't work, and how we can improve our negotiation skills. Welcome Negotiations Ninja listeners. Today, my incredible guest is Chris Hadnagy, a return guest on the show. Why? Because he is brilliant. He is brilliant at the topic of social engineering, of all of the tactics and strategies that are required to persuade and influence. You're going to love this interview with Chris Hadnagy. Hello, Chris. How are you?
Chris Hadnagy: I'm doing great. How are you doing?
Mark: I'm doing awesome, man. I'm stoked to have you on the show again.
Chris Hadnagy: Yeah, I'm happy to be here.
Mark: Well, we've got so many great reviews about you and your work and everything that you're doing. I thought, man, we got to get this guy back on so he can share more of his wisdom. And we're going to dive into the conversation around your new book called, Human Hacking. Fantastic, by the way.
Chris Hadnagy: Thank you.
Mark: Really good. Folks, if you're interested, and I know you are, because you listen to this show, I highly recommend that you check out Chris's other books as well, which are fantastic as well. There's one on social engineering, Unmasking the Social Engineer. It's all amazing. He talks-
Chris Hadnagy: Thank you.
Mark: ...all about how to basically make social conventions evaporate, essentially. And basically, take advantage of situations where it teaches you how to do that and teaches you, more importantly, how to defend against it, which I really like. Before we get into the weeds, though, Chris, maybe you could tell the listeners a bit about who you are and what you do.
Chris Hadnagy: Sure. So I'm the CEO of a company named Social Engineer. My fun title is chief human hacker, where we focus on helping large companies learn how vulnerable their people are. That means that we are adversarial simulators. So we make believe we're the bad guy, we hack them through social engineering tactics, but then our goal is to always help them be better. And I'm also the CEO of Innocent Lives Foundation, which is a nonprofit, 501( c)( 3) group that we use all the talent in our community of InfoSec professionals to work with law enforcement on uncovering and unmasking people who traffic and abuse children, and then helping law enforcement find out where they are.
Mark: I didn't know that. That's awesome, man. Very, very cool. Well, let's dive into it because, and one of the things that you mentioned there, which I find, I love this, that you do this, is you speak to big companies about how vulnerable their systems are, how vulnerable their people are. And to me, when I read some of your stuff, it is shocking to me how vulnerable some of these multinational organizations are. Can you talk about that for a second, and just talk about some of the things that you've found? Don't name names, but just maybe a few examples?
Chris Hadnagy: Yes. It's an interesting thought process, because it is shocking, but I also want to level set it. Is that we look at companies that have 10, 50, a hundred thousand employees or more, and a turnover ratio, let's just say, average 7%, but let's use 10 for easy numbers. So you got a 10, 000- person company with a thousand people coming and going a year. That's three or four people a day. That means you've got three or four new humans every day leaving and coming back into your company, which means there's always going to be vulnerability, because you have training that you may be doing perfectly. You may be doing it great. You may be phishing them, vishing them, teaching them, sending them all the good messages. You have a great reporting system, but when brand new Beth or brand new Joe comes into the fold, he and she hasn't been trained yet. So they don't know how to do it right, so that brings vulnerability. And we've seen things that are at that level. Now, granted, we've also seen things that are really shocking, like where you just go, " Wow, what was this company thinking?" Not doing any training, not having any security perimeter, not having a place for people to report phishing emails. Tell you, one of the shocking things I see way too often is that they use punishment and shame as part of their security awareness program. So if you click on a phish, there's a chance you're getting fired or your name will be put on the list on the internet showing that you're a guy or gal who clicked on the phish. So think of this, if you're a parent and you have a child, and you want your child to be obedient to you in something. Is the best case scenario that next time their friends come over, you pull them out in front of their friends and you pants them and let them all laugh at them?
Mark: That would shame me.
Chris Hadnagy: That would never work. It doesn't work, and anyone who would do that would be not winning the parent of the year award. But we do that to our employees, right? So, hey, let's embarrass them and let's, maybe they'll learn. Shame and humiliation doesn't work, and I see it sadly all the time. And that's our goal is to try to help change that mentality, to make education and awareness about these vectors something that is not just for business, but you bring it home to your families.
Mark: Yeah. I love how multidisciplinary your approach is as well. Because you're not just... You've done this now, because I think you work with Joe Navarro as well-
Chris Hadnagy: I do.
Mark: ...in different circumstances, right?
Chris Hadnagy: Yeah.
Mark: And so Joe's been on the show before, too. For those of you that are listening, folks, when it comes to influence and persuasion, Chris and the people that he's now surrounded himself with are the who's who of influence and persuasion.
Chris Hadnagy: Thank you.
Mark: And I fund it amazing how you can take something from an InfoSec, pen testing scope primarily, but you can translate it across so many different types of industries, because all of these skills, to learn and defend against, are not only applicable in that industry, but they're also applicable in sales and procurement, and legal and negotiation, and M& A and all of those things that exist, too. But one thing that I love the most about what you do, especially at the beginning of your book, you have people sign an agreement to not use these skills maliciously. I love that you did that, but I want you to talk just around that for a second about why that's in there.
Chris Hadnagy: Yeah. So I know it's not enforceable. Just what you said, these skills are... you can move them across all sorts of fields. You can use this to steal from people, you can use this to scam people. And I wanted to make sure that as I taught these skills to people, that in your mind, you were realizing that there's a power there. And I know it's a cliche, but with that power comes a responsibility. And that when you have it, sure, people ask me all the time, "Can I use this in my family to make them to do whatever I want?" I can, but instead I use it in my family to make myself a better communicator, myself a better boss, a better manager, a better team player. And when I do that, then I enhance not only my team, my family, but I make myself better. And that contract is there to help people say, " Look, you're going to learn these things, and at some point during the book, you're going to read this and go, 'Wow, I can use this for some amazingly bad things.'" Don't. Think it. That's fine. Think it. We all have those thoughts at times, but then don't do it. It's not kind, and it doesn't... The end of the title of the book is leave them feeling better for having met you. So I want that to be the mantra.
Mark: Yes. I love that approach. And I love that you've got that at the beginning of the book, because these skills are powerful. I want to dive into a few of them, specifically. I want to start with chapter three where you talk about nailing the approach. Now, for the listeners, it might be beneficial to talk about why the approach to something is so important. And then, we can get to maybe some of the steps that you would use to nail that approach.
Chris Hadnagy: Sure. Now, in social engineering, we call this like pretexting. Let's answer that question with two scenarios. So if you're about to enter a negotiation for a contract with a vendor, and I know I'm going up against three or four other vendors that I've gone up against before. They have great quality product and services like I do, and I know that they're a little cheaper. Now, my initial motive may be, " Oh, I'm going to lower my price so I can compete." So let's see how we can use these skills. So nailing the approach. My pretext is going to be based on what my end goal is. So I first have to come into this negotiation thinking what's my end goal? Well, that's easy. My end goal is I'm there to win the business. Now that's easy to say, but let's say what is there another end goal? Because that one is obvious, I'm there to win the business. But let's say the end goal is also to get every person that I am their best choice. Because it's easy to say, " I want to win the business," but that's about me. But if I'm negotiating with you, then I want to say, " Okay, listen, in this negotiation, my approach needs to allow me to get Mark to believe I'm the best choice for this service." So now I take me out of the picture. Mark, think that I'm the best choice for this job. So I need to find out, well, what does Mark value? What are the things that are important to him? Because I can't really convince him that I'm the best choice if I don't know what your value set is. So if it's just price, well now I can't go in and just say, " Well, I'm the best because I'm the cheapest." That's a lie. I'm not the cheapest. So how am I going to do this? So I need to find out, did you have a security event recently? That means that you have to spend extra money on securing things, so you only have this much for this particular service. See, now I'm getting to the root cause. So when I find that out, I can now come into that, and now, before we're not even talking yet, this is all knowledge in my head, so I'm not even expressing this. I'm starting to plan out what my approach is. So let's just say I found out that you're very concerned about money, because you had a security event and your CEO said, " Get this stuff fixed before audits come." So you're looking for a vendor that does what we do and you're given this budget, so that's why money's important to you. So now it's not so much about the best price is what's going to make you win, it's about convincing you that we have the best value for the dollar, and that we can do the job you need. So now what's my approach? Is it going to be sleazy car salesman? Is it going to be just talking about money? No. Maybe now what I need to do is, my approach needs to be understanding about working with companies that have had security incidents, and can I tell stories about that? Can I approach that as a topic? Okay, now, let's flip this same scenario to a family. Now, my daughter does something bad against the family rules and I have two different approaches. I can be angry dad that wants to demand answers, because I need to know why you broke family rules, or I can be empathetic dad that wants to understand why did you break the family rules? There has to be a reason. Now, in the negotiation, there was a lot more work to be done, because I don't have that knowledge. With the family, I have some intimate knowledge. But both of them end in the same result, which is, I have two choices on how I can approach the scenario and I need to choose one. And then, here's the most important part of that chapter, is you need to stick to that one even if things don't go the way that you want them to go. So in the case of negotiations, I come in with that whole thought process and you start just focusing on, " Yeah, but this company is so much cheaper than you. I'm not sure why I would go with you. They're so much cheaper." Do I then change my pretext and go, " Well, look, we could do it for the same price, we'll just match them." Or, do I stick to my pretext and say, " Well, I can't match their price, Mark. But what is it that I can do with the price to help you see that we are a better value? Is there some place we can meet in the middle so I can show you that we really are your best choice for this service that you need?" And then, with my daughter, let's say I approach her and she just rolls her eyes and doesn't want to care about empathetic dad. " I don't feel like talking to you right now."" Okay, honey. I could see you're really tired and you're probably stressed. So why don't we do this? I need answers to this. So we're going to talk about it tomorrow at three, but why don't you take the night? Just think about it rest that's okay, and we'll talk about it tomorrow at 3: 00 p. m. Now what I did in both scenarios is I set my baseline. I'm not going to go past it. I'm not going to change my pretext, but I'm allowing that pretext, that approach to decide how I move forward in this discussion.
Mark: Hey listeners, I want to tell you about another company that I run called Content Callout. It is a thought leadership brand marketing company. Now what does that mean? It means that we take you as an executive or entrepreneur, a leader of a small or a medium- sized business, and we turn you into a thought leader online. We take your personal brand and we amp it up to 11, so that you can lead with confidence knowing that people will recognize you, recognize your brand and recognize your business, because of the thought leadership approach that you've taken on social media, through content creation and content distribution, as well as engaging with all of your following online. How do you get involved in this easy, easy, easy. Just go to contentcallout. com/ getstarted, and you will see there three different options that will allow you to take your thought leadership brand for yourself and for your business to the next level. We are super excited to talk to you about this. We've seen some massive growth with the businesses that we've been working with. Very, very exciting time for us. Look at that. We appreciate it, now to your show. Now, I find this very interesting, because I find that this may very well be one of the biggest mistakes that people make is they switch their pretext.
Chris Hadnagy: Yeah.
Mark: Why do we need to maintain our pretext?
Chris Hadnagy: So imagine this case, I'm going to use my daughter one first, because that's easy, and then I'll go to the negotiation one. "Listen, honey, you know that I asked you not to go to that chat room, and now why I don't want you to go there. So I need to understand why did you do that?" And she doesn't respond the way I want, os I slam my fist down on the desk. " Well, you know what? You're going to answer me, because I'm your father and I'm telling you." Now, what she sees is that it wasn't real. It's not real emotion. It was just an act and she's going to never trust empathetic dad again. So I lose in future negotiations. Now, in the case of where I'm negotiating with you, if I come in and I start telling you, " The highest quality, the best person for the job is me, don't match these other people." And then you say, " Look, I can't do it because these guys are$ 5, 000 cheaper." And I go, " Okay, I'll match their price." All that stuff I told you about how quality is so important and price, it doesn't always mean quality and that's why I can't match that, because we have a higher standard than they do. But then I lower my price. Then what did I just say? I guess I'm willing to lower my standards also. So by sticking to it, but then saying to you, " Look, Mark, I can't match them completely. I can't come down$ 5, 000. Now there may be some wiggle room. But tell me, where can we meet so I can show you that we are the highest quality and you get a price that makes your boss happy, right? So me where we can meet." And now you say, " Look, I could probably do it if you can come down two grand." " Okay, you know what? I think I can do that. But I want you to know when we do this, I'm going to do this for you. But then when you see my quality, next time, let's not to have this back and forth, right? Okay?" And then we joke about it, laugh, and now I came down a little bit. You won the negotiation. You can go back to your boss and said, " Look, we got the top guy, but I brought him down by two grand and he was five grand higher." Now the boss loves you because you negotiated the top guy. I love you because I got the job, and you feel really good about the whole interaction. And I didn't have to change my pretext and lower my standards to win the job.
Mark: Ideally, in those circumstances, and this segues really nicely to the next thing that I wanted to talk to you about, is we'd like those people to want to help us. Right? So by the way, for the listeners, this is literally the title of the next chapter is Make Them Want to Help You. So if I'm in that circumstance, how do I get that person to want to help me, to want to do business with me?
Chris Hadnagy: Yeah. So influence, I define it as the act of getting someone to want to do what you want them to do. So when we look at the scientific studies behind influence and we look at the six principles that Cialdini, Robert Cialdini, and his book, Influence. Which, by the way, he just released a new version of it. Phenomenal. He added some things to it. So my work there is based on that original book of his. When we look at those principles, let's just take one, reciprocity, so the first one that he talks about reciprocity. Which is the idea, scientifically, that if I give you something, you feel indebted to me and you want to give me something back. Now, the rule is that my ask can't be of greater value than what I gave. So I can't hold a door open for you and then say, " Hey, what's your password?" That doesn't work, because they are not of equal value. If I hold a door open for you, what I'm going to get in return is you hold the next door open for me. So that's reciprocity in the simplest form. Now, in a negotiation, what I'm saying in that exact example, where I was talking just a moment ago is, I say to you, " Look, I want to work with you, and I'm willing to come down in this price and I'm willing to give back to you. Tell me what it is that I need to do to make you look good in front of your boss." Because now I'm hearing in the conversation that the reason this price is so strict is because your boss demanded that you meet this budget, that you have to meet this budget. That's why you were going to go with these people who are$ 5, 000 lower, so you could come in under budget and you're going to look good to your boss. So I hear all that. So now I'm showing you, I heard you. " Look, Mark, I don't know what to do here, but I want to be able to give you the price that will make your boss happy and that will make you look good. So what is it that I can do so we can meet in the middle?" Now, you came back with the idea of two grand, not me, right? So you say, " Look, if you can come down$ 2, 000, I'm within budget and I think we can do it." " Great. Mark, I can do that." Now if you came back and said, " Well, I can give you the business if you came down five grand. " Wow. Well, Mark, I already said I can't do that." Now, granted, we're not going to win every negotiation. I wish I can give a tip right here on this podcast that would say guarantee you do this you win every negotiation. We're going to lose some, right? In my business, I get caught sometimes breaking into a building or vishing. It happens. We're going to lose some of the deals, that happens. But I find that when you use these principles, the way we're talking, you can get the best chance of not losing. You have a higher ratio of success than failure because you're using these principles. So the more principles of influence you use, the more opportunity you give for them to tell you exactly what they need in order for them to make the decision in your favor. And when you do that, when they tell you that, it becomes their idea to then go with you.
Mark: A big part of that and getting someone to want to help you is the development of rapport in that initial first meeting, and finding areas where there are commonalities that may exist between you so that rapport develops. One thing that I find to be very interesting in your work is that you break down examples, very clear, like, " Do this and you will develop rapport, essentially." Can you talk about maybe a couple of the ways that someone could very easily and quickly develop rapport with someone?
Chris Hadnagy: Yeah. I'll give you two, unless you want more-
Mark: That's perfect.
Chris Hadnagy: ...but I'll give you two. And then, the second one I'm going to give you is the most powerful one, okay? But I'm going to give you this first one first, which is sympathy and assistance themes. So a sympathy and assistance theme for rapport- building means that you are asking the other person for help. Now here's the rules that we all mess up at some time in our life. Your ask cannot be greater than the level of rapport you are currently at, right? If you're my next door neighbor and I've never spoken to you ever, and I come over, I see you in the yard and I say, " Hey neighbor. I need some help. Can you come in my house help me move my furniture for a couple hours?" My sympathy request, my assistance request was way higher than our relationship value. Our relationship value is here and you're like, " Bro, I'd love to, but my wife needs me to go do this thing. Sorry, I got to go," and you walk away. Now, if we're best friends and you're next door, and I've seen you and I've helped you a million times, and we always go out for beers or whatever, and now I say, " Hey, Mark, man, I hurt my back. I need to move a couch. Can you come over and help me for a little bit?" " Yeah, man, no problem." Because my ask is equal to our relationship. So now imagine this in a negotiation, you're approaching a person who you have to determine, where is your relationship? Okay? In the case I'm giving, are is it just vendor and potential client, or have we developed some rapport before that? Have we joked before? Have we laughed? Have we told stories? Maybe we're having these Zoom meetings and I see a book on your shelf, and I go, " Oh, I've read that book. That's a great book." And now we've built some commonality on something that we both like, or I see a artifact on your shelf and I'm like, " OH, you're into soccer, football. That's cool. Hey, who were you rooting for during the recent games?" And now we have some conversation about that. Now we've developed some rapport, okay? So now my asks could be greater. But when you're doing sympathy and assistance requests, you have to first, and this is the first stage of it, remember that you cannot ask for more than the value of your present relationship. Now, you can increase those asks as your relationship increases, but we make the mistake all the time, all humans make the mistake all the time of going for the ask when our relationship is here, and I'm going to go for this. Look, just give me the deal and I'll prove to you that I'm the best. But I'm here. Ooh, that's a big ask, because my butt's on the line with my boss if I give you this deal and you're not the best. So I can't make that request until we are at that equal playing field. And that's how sympathy and assistance requests work for a rapport. Also, psychologically, when we help another person, our brain releases chemicals, like oxytocin and dopamine, and those chemicals reward us for doing something good. So when we can help another person, even if it's something really small, and I find I can do this all the time. I'll say, " We just launched this new thing for our vishing product. You're one of the first people to actually read it." Of course, this has to be true, I can't lie. " So we just launched it, and you're one of the few people that are just getting to see it." And I defined it in the SOW. When you read it, can you just give it a little extra attention and tell me if it makes sense to you? And if it doesn't make sense to you, then I need to make some changes." So now what I'm doing is I'm making a request for your assistance, but I'm not making a request for your assistance-
Mark: This is so clever.
Chris Hadnagy: Right? Right? So now I'm asking you to really carefully read my SOW-
Mark: Oh, man. That-
Chris Hadnagy: ... becauseI want you to correct where I'm wrong. And now you're going to read it, you're going to come back to me with feedback. And now we're talking about the product I want to sell you, right?
Mark: Not only that-
Chris Hadnagy: Beautiful, isn't it?
Mark: ... you've increased the dopaminein their minds about helping you. They're getting a reward out of it.
Chris Hadnagy: I'm saying your abilities are up here. Please correct me. I've put you on a pedestal.
Mark: Yeah, you've engineered dopamine release, basically.
Chris Hadnagy: Yeah, yeah.
Mark: Love it.
Chris Hadnagy: You engineer the release of the chemicals that put you in the highest moment to build that relationship. So now we start the whole sales call off with, " Hey, before we get into all the nitty gritty, Mark, I remember asking you if you could just take a look at that one part. Did you have any thoughts? Did it read right?" Now, here's the most important part of this moment, active listening. If Mark is now telling me all the things that didn't make sense, and I'm like, " Uh- huh( affirmative)," and I'm not taking notes, he's going to see that as disingenuous. So now I got a pen, I got my paper out and Mark is going, " Yeah, okay. Look, there's one part when you said IVs, I didn't really understand it. So I was curious, what does that mean?"" You know what? That's great. Let me write that down. I need to define that better is what you're saying? I'm hearing what you're saying? I need to define that more clearly?" " Yeah, define it more." " Okay, great. What else did you notice? How about the way the service works? Did that make sense to you?" And maybe you say, " Yeah, actually that was really clear." " Okay, good, because I really worked hard on that part, but I needed to know that it was clear, because I'm the creator of it so it makes sense to me. So maybe it just didn't make sense to other people and I needed your input on that. Thank you so much." Now, is there anything else that you think I should correct in those paragraphs? Two or three more things?" Great, write them down. " Mark, I can't even thank you enough, man. That bit is going to help me improve this whole process. I really can't thank you enough. I don't want to take too much of your time helping me make me better, so let's talk about the service that you asked me to provide." And now, I just go into, " So, hey, besides what we just talked about, let's go back to the basic part and let's talk about that first, and then we'll get to the IVs and show you how that really ties into the whole project for you."
Mark: What a lot of people don't understand is that when someone helps you, they also become the probability of them wanting to help you again is-
Chris Hadnagy: Yes, is significantly higher and their investment in you and your product and service is now at an all- time high. So you've just taken rapport from two guys who know each other to this guy becomes your internal advocate. You want to talk about negotiation mastery, there it is.
Mark: Yeah. Folks, if you're listening into this and you're thinking to yourself, " Wait, wait, wait, what did I just hear?" So basically what I want you to think about is, and I love how tactical this is to get someone to invest in you for that feedback, thus helping you, thus creating the chemical response required for them to feel good about it, thus also wanting them to help you further. What a clever move. I love that move. Fantastic.
Chris Hadnagy: Thank you.
Mark: Really, really good. Okay.
Chris Hadnagy: Just one last thing I want to say on that is, for anyone who adopts this, you can't ask them to review something that doesn't involve the service that they asked for, right? I can can't say, " Hey, can you review this other white paper I'm writing that's about nothing you want?" Because that's too much. They're already going to read the SOW, so all you're saying is, " While you're reading it, can you pay special attention to pages three and four? Because I wrote that content and I just need to know if I'm being clear. And if it doesn't make sense to you, I need you to be brutally honest and tell me where I can improve it so it makes sense." So they're already going to do the thing, but now you're asking them to give you the feedback and that is why it works. Now, if we're doing that and then I'm giving you glory and honor for all of this, and you're like, " Hey, man, if you ever need me to read anything, pass it on." I'll be like, " Really? Are you sure? Because boy, I can abuse that." " Yeah, once in a while, if you want to pass me something." " Okay, man, maybe I'll do that." Now, I don't do it right away. A couple weeks, I'm like, " Hey man, I got this other thing. Would you read it? It's like a page." " Yeah, man." Doesn't matter if I get the work or not, you're going to be invested in being my guy.
Mark: And now you're building that and now you're increasing the level of rapport and the relationship, which makes your ability to ask for more...
Chris Hadnagy: Significantly greater.
Mark: Brilliant. I love it. Chris, this has been, as always, a great experience. Whenever I chat with you, my mind just starts exploding with ideas of, how am I going to integrate this? How am I going to make this work for me? To that end, I'm sure there's going to be people that are listening to this going, " Where do I buy this guy's books? How do I reach out to this guy? How do I follow his stuff?" Tell the listeners where they can find you and where they can find your book.
Chris Hadnagy: Okay, so for me, Twitter, I'm very active on. My handle is humanhacker. The book you can find on Amazon, anywhere. The latest book is called, Human Hacking: Win Friends, Influence People, and Leave Them Feeling Better Off for Having Met You. I also have a site devoted to the book, which is humanhackingbook.com. And the reason I tell people to go to that, I don't sell the book there, you buy it on Amazon, but you go there is, inside the site, you can register for free. There's all these extras that you can get for the book for each chapter. There's printouts and downloads, chats that we can have about that. And people can reach directly out and ask questions about the book or ideas, you're using it in negotiations, I have a question about this principle. How do you think this would work? Feel free to do that. So you could reach out to me through one of those mediums. LinkedIn also, is another good one. I'm very active in trying to help as many people as I can. So if I don't answer super quick, don't think I'm ignoring you, but I try to get back to each person that reaches out.
Mark: For the listeners. I'm going to make a recommendation for you. Just go buy all the books, because the information that you're going to get out of it far exceeds the value, far exceeds any money that you're going to spend on this. The amount of value that I've gotten out of these books has been significant. Even if, like for me, because I travel a lot, even just asking for upgrades at the check- in line, and all that kind of stuff, has been massive. I've used your examples in here of how to do that, and they work pretty much almost every single time.
Chris Hadnagy: Its ridiculous, right?
Mark: Yeah. And I love your example, using self- deprecating humor and stuff like that. Just brilliant, fantastic stuff. So Chris, thank you so much for being on, man. You're always such a pleasure to talk to. Thank you for being here.
Chris Hadnagy: Thank you. I could talk to you for hours, so I appreciate the time.
Mark: Oh, thank you for being here. For listeners, go get those books. Thanks for being here. Have a great day. Hey, friends, thanks so much for listening to this episode. If you enjoyed it, please share it with friends and colleagues so that they can benefit from it as well. If you find Negotiations Ninja podcast worthy, please go onto iTunes and give us a cool rating with a nice review. We certainly appreciate every single one that we get, because it helps us to understand who is listening, how they're listening and what it is they like. If there's something that you would like me to discuss around negotiation, influence or persuasion, give me a shout. You know how to reach me on social media, or you can get me on my website, which is www. negotiations. ninja.